Respectful Discussion.

[Akaiya Akeboshi]

Hello Celestia Staff and players,

I have a question for you all . Recently a friend of mine was banned for PK bugging, as he gained levels and was reported. Why is this illegal? Also, why is it something that a player can report others for? There are several issues with this reporting process as well as the actual rule that I feel should be addressed.

First, Celestia Luna is a private server that is well known for its reputation and features. One of these features is multiplied experience. I fully understand that PK bugging is considered a glitch, but it does not harm game play, competitive or otherwise. Gaining levels quickly, (something that could also be achieved via experience scrolls and solo date dungeoning), does not pose an 'unfair advantage' in a battle. If that were the case, then solo date dungeoning and multiple experience scrolls should also be illegal because they give players an 'unfair advantage'.

Second, the way this 'issue' is reported is not being looked at from an view of oversight. What's to stop a player from entering PK mode, running up to a group of players, attacking them and provoking a fight, then preforming the glitch and getting a person banned because they 'gained levels'? With the current reporting process, all it requires is a picture of the act of leveling up after killing the PK'er. This is very prone to abuse, and I feel it should be looked at again before actions are taken against those involved.

Finally, why is it that instead of fixing this glitch that supposedly gives players an 'unfair advantage', the staff is sent out to ban those who utilize it? Is it really more beneficial to ban players, and possible financial contributors, than to fix this glitch which anyone can preform? And do so without warning? (The rule was just barely put into effect, and majority of this games players don't stop by the forum often enough to be aware of rule updates like this. Hacking items, harassing, and stealing are easily understandable as they directly effect other players.)

If anything PK bugging is laziness or a way for players to progress without spending days training. ( Be aware that everyone who plays this game does not have loads of free time and/or money to use for progression. )

I can hardly expect the rules to change, or for a revoking of bans associated with this issue, but I do ask that the staff take a look at the reporting process and be fully aware of possible abuse that can take place with the system that is currently in effect.

[Younko]

Dude many of us totally agree with you , and heads up, PK leveling isn't a glitch nor a hack it is just how the system works ( You die = disavantage by losing items from your inventory, if you don't have any ? you lose the only thing you have , your exp , so the killer may gain something ) so it can't be fixed .

In gpotato luna they used PK leveling has a way to gain gold and it didn't harm the market nor give any disavantage over normal players so i don't understand why CL players are so pickie about it . Well i guess GM are "kinda" lazy so they banned it to prevent char selling that could end in scam .

How can it be illegal if it's how the system works itself?

+1 to all your statements

[Gears]

if PK levelling become Legal, there will be alots of RMT & scammer,

[Enthusiasm★]

its an advantage here since the server is private. but i totally agree with you they should fix the glitch. i hope so

+1

[Akaiya Akeboshi]

PK leveling isn't a glitch nor a hack it is just how the system works ( You die = disavantage by losing items from your inventory, if you don't have any ? you lose the only thing you have , your exp , so the killer may gain something ) so it can't be fixed .

How can it be illegal if it's how the system works itself?

Thanks, and yes. I've heard that from someone else before.

It really isn't fair to ban someone for a rewards system that's been programmed into the game already.

I thought it was a bug / glitch, but if it's not then being banned for it really makes no sense.

( Especially without warning. )

Why not just disable or restrict the feature until it can be fixed?

if PK levelling become Legal, there will be alots of RMT & scammer,

I trust that the members of Cl know better than to pay money outside of site donation.

Edit ::

its an advantage here since the server is private.

Care to explain this to me?

/// Also, the purpose of this topic is to see what everyone thinks about this and to inform others about these dangers. Don't be afraid to discuss or voice yourselves here. This is the discussion board after all.

[Spandex]

In the original server, being able to take one's exp was only available through the looting method, correct me if I'm wrong.

But here in CL, when a PKer disconnects themself, the exp is still given, which is not supposed to happen. Hence it being a bug. You're right as it isn't really harming other players, but it's still using a bug to one's advantage, and it's pretty unfair if you think about it.

I personally know of people who've gotten PK leveled from 150's, yeah it's nice that they can get that boost but think about the other people who actually worked their behinds off to get to their level via grinding and DD?

idk, just my thought.

I trust that the members of Cl know better than to pay money outside of site donation.

As much I wish this was true, there are many who RMT, you'd be surprised

[Rookie]

There have been cases where people PK-leveled their way to level 150 in a short amount of time. Not everyone can do the PK-leveling glitch due to not having a higher leveled character to leech off of and DDing itself has to eventually be solo to level beyond 130. The fact that people actually spend a lot of time working their way up, only to have others surpass them by simply PK-leveling is irritating and counts as an unfair advantage since they can max everything out before others are able to. I also heard from someone that PK-leveling does harm the server somehow, though I don't know how. As for trying to frame someone, there should be good evidence in some kind of video, or a series of screenshots.

Edit: On a side note, I'm guessing it was either you or a friend who got banned for PK-leveling?

[Enthusiasm★]

In the original server, being able to take one's exp was only available through the looting method, correct me if I'm wrong.

But here in CL, when a PKer disconnects themself, the exp is still given, which is not supposed to happen. Hence it being a bug. You're right as it isn't really harming other players, but it's still using a bug to one's advantage, and it's pretty unfair if you think about it.

I personally know of people who've gotten PK leveled from 150's, yeah it's nice that they can get that boost but think about the other people who actually worked their behinds off to get to their level via grinding and DD?

idk, just my thought.

As much I wish this was true, there are many who RMT, you'd be surprised

read this topic starter.

[Akaiya Akeboshi]

The last two replies have basically said that PK bugging is unfair because it allows you to gain levels faster.

To try and get an analogous statement in here, I could say that using 30% scrolls is unfair because it allows

x player

to gain levels more quickly than

y player

, and support it by saying that he can't get a 30% scroll because it costs premium points and he can't buy premium points.

X player

can then proceed to tell

y player

how it doesn't matter if they can't buy premium points and get 30% scrolls easily.

The same thing goes for PK bugging. It could give

y player

an unfair advantage, because it allows them to gain levels even more quickly than

x player

. They can then support it by saying that they can't use the PK bug because they don't know or have a high enough leveled character.

Y player

can then proceed to tell them that it doesn't matter if they don't know or have a high level character to assist them.

It is the earned choice of those individuals, who worked to get their levels so high, as to whether or not they want to share their experience with another player or use it to boost one of their own characters. It is also the earned choice of those individuals, who worked to receive their money, as to whether or not they want to spend it to improve their own characters or help improve another individuals character.

DDing itself has to eventually be solo to level beyond 130.

No. Date dungeoning has to be solo for you to gain levels at a faster rate beyond 130. You'll get experience regardless.

I also heard from someone that PK-leveling does harm the server somehow, though I don't know how.

I haven't heard about this one, but even if it is true wouldn't it make better sense to disable or restrict the option until the glitch can be fixed, rather than banning people for using it and letting the server continue to get harmed by those who get away with it?

But here in CL, when a PKer disconnects themself, the exp is still given, which is not supposed to happen.

@Enthusiasm★

The main problem with this is that it is a conscious choice for a person to share their experience. It is not being preformed against their will, nor is it something that is exclusive to one person. It is programmed into the game itself, so it is not a hack. It is a bug that allows a player to gain levels quickly, and that is by no means dangerous to anyone. ( Unless you consider competition to be dangerous. Lol. )

From what I can tell, this game being a private server, as you stated, does not change those facts.

[Enthusiasm★]

The last two replies have basically said that PK bugging is unfair because it allows you to gain levels faster.

To try and get an analogous statement in here, I could say that using 30% scrolls is unfair because it allows

x player

to gain levels more quickly than

y player

, and support it by saying that he can't get a 30% scroll because it costs premium points and he can't buy premium points.

X player

can then proceed to tell

y player

how it doesn't matter if they can't buy premium points and get 30% scrolls easily.

The same thing goes for PK bugging. It could give

y player

an unfair advantage, because it allows them to gain levels even more quickly than

x player

. They can then support it by saying that they can't use the PK bug because they don't know or have a high enough leveled character.

Y player

can then proceed to tell them that it doesn't matter if they don't know or have a high level character to assist them.

It is the earned choice of those individuals, who worked to get their levels so high, as to whether or not they want to share their experience with another player or use it to boost one of their own characters. It is also the earned choice of those individuals, who worked to receive their money, as to whether or not they want to spend it to improve their own characters or help improve another individuals character.

No. Date dungeoning has to be solo for you to gain levels at a faster rate beyond 130. You'll get experience regardless.

I haven't heard about this one, but even if it is true wouldn't it make better sense to disable or restrict the option until the glitch can be fixed, rather than banning people for using it and letting the server continue to get harmed by those who get away with it?

@Enthusiasm★

The main problem with this is that it is a conscious choice for a person to share their experience. It is not being preformed against their will, nor is it something that is exclusive to one person. It is programmed into the game itself, so it is not a hack. It is a bug that allows a player to gain levels quickly, and that is by no means dangerous to anyone. ( Unless you consider competition to be dangerous. Lol. )

From what I can tell, this game being a private server, as you stated, does not change those facts.

it is rather taking advantage to a person who doesn't know how to level faster, and to top it all it may lead to a hobby to all players to this technique. :)

[Gary McNabb]

It's simple, Brandon's server means Brandon's rules.

Now I'll answer your questions.

I have a question for you all . Recently a friend of mine was banned for PK bugging, as he gained levels and was reported. Why is this illegal?

Because it's explicitly listed as against the rules.

Also, why is it something that a player can report others for? There are several issues with this reporting process as well as the actual rule that I feel should be addressed.

First, Celestia Luna is a private server that is well known for its reputation and features. One of these features is multiplied experience. I fully understand that PK bugging is considered a glitch, but it does not harm game play, competitive or otherwise. Gaining levels quickly, (something that could also be achieved via experience scrolls and solo date dungeoning), does not pose an 'unfair advantage' in a battle. If that were the case, then solo date dungeoning and multiple experience scrolls should also be illegal because they give players an 'unfair advantage'.

If you understand PK bugging is a bug, then you should understand why it's illegal.

"Hacking"/Bug Exploiting - If you happen to find a bug, report it and DON'T use it.

It's worth noting that the Bug Report forum if full of bug reports for things that make playing harder but not bugs that make playing easier (reinhacking prefix, pk leveling).

Second, the way this 'issue' is reported is not being looked at from an view of oversight. What's to stop a player from entering PK mode, running up to a group of players, attacking them and provoking a fight, then preforming the glitch and getting a person banned because they 'gained levels'? With the current reporting process, all it requires is a picture of the act of leveling up after killing the PK'er. This is very prone to abuse, and I feel it should be looked at again before actions are taken against those involved.

We work on an evidence based system. If someone does this, feel free to take screenshots for counter-evidence.

Finally, why is it that instead of fixing this glitch that supposedly gives players an 'unfair advantage', the staff is sent out to ban those who utilize it? Is it really more beneficial to ban players, and possible financial contributors, than to fix this glitch which anyone can preform?

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fix bugs?

Here is the source for the popular browser Google Chrome http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/ and here is the bug list http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/list?num=100&start=0. Have a look, pick a bug and try to fix one. Hell, if you can find the functions for handling the non-client area I'd be impressed.

The luna source code is much MUCH messier than that. There's no option "TogglePKBugging = true" that can be just turned off. First the bug needs to be traced through the source (which can take a loooong time depending on the amount of information provided by the players, where it's located in the source etc), then it needs to be decided how best to fix it, then the fix needs to be coded in, then the fix needs to be tested to make sure it doesn't introduce new bugs (which it most likely will). Of course after all that happens, people WILL complain about how it was fixed.

And do so without warning? (The rule was just barely put into effect, and majority of this games players don't stop by the forum often enough to be aware of rule updates like this. Hacking items, harassing, and stealing are easily understandable as they directly effect other players.)

There is a warning. In fact THREE warnings in the rules about bug abusing (one specifically for PK bugging).

1. "Hacking"/Bug Exploiting - If you happen to find a bug, report it and DON'T use it.

2. PK Bugging (seriously, we will ban you for this!)

3. And just because it isn't on this list doesn't mean you won't get banned for it, so REPORT ANY BUGS YOU FIND!

Three.

Decisions about what is acceptable and what isn't aren't made lightly, in this case it was decided PK bug abusing is NOT acceptable. End of story.

[adde07]

There is a warning. In fact THREE warnings in the rules about bug abusing (one specifically for PK bugging).

1. "Hacking"/Bug Exploiting - If you happen to find a bug, report it and DON'T use it.

2. PK Bugging (seriously, we will ban you for this!)

3. And just because it isn't on this list doesn't mean you won't get banned for it, so REPORT ANY BUGS YOU FIND!

Three.

Decisions about what is acceptable and what isn't aren't made lightly, in this case it was decided PK bug abusing is NOT acceptable. End of story.

how about with bug exploiting at save point zakandia?

can be banned? cause im has been report but other GM denied it ><

if u need proof or SS, i can show it

[Rookie]

how about with bug exploiting at save point zakandia?

can be banned? cause im has been report but other GM denied it ><

if u need proof or SS, i can show it

I don't think that's really a bug. You can do that with any save point really, and all it take is just moving there. That's when you AoE the crap out of them, Lol.

[adde07]

I don't think that's really a bug. You can do that with any save point really, and all it take is just moving there. That's when you AoE the crap out of them, Lol.

yes, i can do it now... but for newbie ppl?

i want GM fixed it,

[Iridesence]

yes, i can do it now... but for newbie ppl?

i want GM fixed it,

you mean you want to remove the savepoint?

[Chiriku]

Hmm. Few thoughts. First, Well if everyone can do it why is it unfair?

Second, It might help the server lessen the selling of characters because everyone can make one by pk leveling.

Lastly, do you think it's unfair to new players because some guy who used to pk level when its still legal bullied them and cant do anything but to dd his a*s off.?

Just my thoughts regarding this issue. Well if the server add more maps and monsters that can make leveling easier than solo dd-ing its understandable to make pk leveling illegal.

[Hellsinker]

Hmmm. By default,when you pked someone,and got killed,the killer was able to loot,3 loots ofc.

By disconnecting,the killer would automaticly loot,with a 100% sure ratio (no looting fails like "destroyed item" or "nothing" messages)

After the pvp map was implemented,pk looting became unnacesible,thus,getting killed and disconnecting should not be considered a bug because it has been a bug created by a change made by the server itself.

Also,most people who pk bugged and that i knew,most of them,were 130,said that it was "because solo dding is the only way to get closer to lvling,and yet,its very hard"

As a plus,people who pk bugged and were not seen,yet showed SSs of their kill count,they could simply go around,kill a great bunch of mobs,and their kill count would sky-rocket,making them inmune to such a report because by looks,it would seem like a normal player.

Why not just take out pk? Since implementing a way to automaticly ban those who pk "bug" is complicated,why not just wipe it out?

And people will come and say "Oh,but pk is part of the game,is nice nice!"

Maybe people should make up your minds. +1 for your post,got some good points there

[Yumemi]

Take out PK?I'm sorry but do u know how fun PK tag is? (when u don't have PK points that is) Some of us have fun with it not wonder how to gain something trough it .-.

[Hellsinker]

And people will come and say "Oh,but pk is part of the game,is nice nice!"

Knew it,i myself pk at the way many times,but what one of the guys here said,there could be people who could just disconnect,with no items while being killed by pk,get the SS of the other person killing him and VOILA,pk bug ban,get it?

[Yumemi]

And how will a ss like that serve as proof for 'PK lvling'?

[Hellsinker]

And how will a ss like that serve as proof for 'PK lvling'?

You can check any of the reports,people pking,and getting killed by another "OMG OMG ITS PK BUGGING GOTTA REPORT"

The best SSs are those with a char lvling after killing the pker

Now,let's say a low level rogue with bleeds kills one of my high lvl chars,i was dual-logged,and i see him lvl up,i take a SS of my char,his char lvling up,and there you go,i got someone innocent into a ban

[Yumemi]

I don't think the GMs will believe a report like that. Players know PK lvling means ban so no one would do it in The Way channel 1 for example where ppl hang out and newbies lvl where they can get reported. I don't think that's enough reason to remove PKing from the game...if that's even possible.

[Hellsinker]

Why not just take out pk? Since implementing a way to automaticly ban those who pk "bug" is complicated,why not just wipe it out?

And people will come and say "Oh,but pk is part of the game,is nice nice!"

Maybe people should make up your minds. +1 for your post,got some good points there

I quote myself,yet again

It was an opinion,and it is possible,im not saying "TAKE IT OUT PLS" im just saying,if its so annoying and people complain about pk lvling,then why is it there?

Also,people still do it,why do you think a report is necessary? Because it doesn't seem that they can get banned without a report of what they're doing

As a plus,its also like saying "People know RMT and trading chars/saying spot is bannable,so they won't do it" yet we're required to report because they still do it. Although,GMs do check the shout-log,so i don't think it'd fall in the same category

[Yumemi]

Take a chill pill dude, you´re starting to contradict yourself. This is getting pointless so I'll stop replaying but gl with that 'option' of yours o:

[Hellsinker]

Take a chill pill dude, you´re starting to contradict yourself. This is getting pointless so I'll stop replaying but gl with that 'option' of yours o:

Where where O:? proof pls

And option? lolwut,where

[Shiroyasha]

So do the pk buggers that reached lvl 150, leveled their pk char to lvl 150 in normal and fair way then let the other character which violated the pk bug rule killed it over and over again?